Mosques have something in common with bouncy castles: you have to remove your shoes before entering. Why not take advantage of this almost certainly divinely authorised coincidence and combine the two?
It would surely improve the image of Islam as a joyless, repressive throwback to a more violent age if you could check your shoes in at the door and praise Allah by way of having a good bounce in an inflatable musalla, complete with bobbing minarets, while reciting passages from the Quran. An enormous bouncy temple in Mecca would make undertaking your mandatory pilgrimage considerably more enjoyable as you bounce with millions of your brethren, while the Dome of the Rock could simply be deflated along with other inflatable places of worship during times of religious strife and re-inflated once the danger has passed.-- TheBamforth, Aug 14 2019 Terrorism in Great Britain: the statistics - 7 June 2018 https://researchbri...P-7613/CBP-7613.pdf//If you can point me to another religion that has produced so many violent fundamentalists in the last 40 years, I will stand corrected.// [zen_tom, Aug 15 2019] BBC News: Stanwell Tesco stabbing: 'Far-right' knifeman admits attack https://www.bbc.co....and-surrey-49369683"I am English, no matter what the government say kill all the non English and get them all out of our of England," "A judge will decide whether his actions amounted to terrorism." [zen_tom, Aug 16 2019] Prejudiced, insensitive, offensive, blasphemous.
[+]-- 8th of 7, Aug 14 2019 Brilliant. You could do a little yogic flying while you were there too. Or is that the other lot?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 14 2019 Excellent-- hippo, Aug 14 2019 The 8th wonder of the world.-- RayfordSteele, Aug 14 2019 //the image of Islam as a joyless, repressive throwback to a more violent age// ... alternately, try spending time with actual Muslims instead of receiving your joyless, repressive opinions from lobby-funded corporate media.
My neighbors have a huge trampoline in their back garden, which they use regularly. In addition, at religious festivals, family weddings and other events, they're quite prone to hiring out a bouncy castle for additional fun.-- zen_tom, Aug 15 2019 //the image of Islam as a joyless, repressive throwback to a more violent age// Well, there's no doubt that that's the image it projects. I have very good muslim friends (particularly in Malaysia, one of my favourite countries; but also here in the UK), but there is no doubt that Islam in practice has some issues.
Christianity seems to have done a little better in updating to the modern world, and maybe it's because christians brought out a revised edition of the bible. Old-testament christianity is pretty primitive, but with v2.0 available there's little excuse to follow the v1.0 instructions. Maybe it's time for someone to write the New Koran, and probably the New Talmud while they're at it. It would also be an opportunity to update the menus a little, now that pork is generally safe to eat.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 15 2019 There's plenty of modern, normal, non-stereotypical Islam about - indeed, from where I'm sitting, normal, non-medieval stuff seems to be the overwhelming norm - at least my opinion formed by work colleges, neighbors, people on the bus, that kind of thing - that doesn't make very good telly though.-- zen_tom, Aug 15 2019 Yes, that's true of course. But my point was that islam has a much more active, violent and vocal fundamentalist segment than other religions at the moment. There are fundamentalist christians, but they seem mostly to just rant and vote. There are fundamentalist jews, but they seem content with strange hairstyles and wearing prayer-boxes on their foreheads. I'm sure there are fundamentalist hindus, shintoists and pastafarians too. But islam has produced fundamentalists who are more worrying altogether.
If you can point me to another religion that has produced so many violent fundamentalists in the last 40 years, I will stand corrected.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 15 2019 //another religion that has produced so many violent fundamentalists in the last 40 year//
Check out page 5 of the attached UK Government report - the numbers speak for themselves. I know "Irish" isn't a religion, and maybe they were just much more effective (there are 4.5 million Irish, and 1.8 billion Muslims (2 million in the UK)- the population-to-death ratio remains easily with the Irish) - but we don't see the same blanket stereotyping of Irish folks as being medieval, joyless, repressive or violent (the figures don't break down how many of those deaths were due to Protestant vs Catholic killings - so I'm refraining to make that leap) - Or maybe we used to, but it's just calmed down a lot.
There's certainly a lot of war going on right now - much of it located in areas that are predominately Muslim - but I don't think that's necessarily rooted in religion, rather than more traditional economic/political reasons for warfare.
But perceptions - as you rightly point out, don't reflect any of that - Bin Ladin's trick was to pull off something truly apocalyptic - something that would create a narrative - and in terms those goals, it worked wonders - just look at this conversation - one isolated event managed to change the face of the world and achieved exactly what the planners intended - to sew the seeds of division. I think in addition to Al Quaida, it's fair to say it's been in lots of people's interests to talk-up the threat, in order to sell us more politicians, police, army, guns, newspapers and so on. So we (or at least sub-divisions within "our" population) have kind of been complicit in that.
More recently, The White Nationalists (again, not a religion per-se) are certainly catching up - between Brevein, that one in Christchurch, and now daily/weekly goings on in the US - things are looking increasingly skewed in terms of perpetuating the "radical and violent Islam" narrative.-- zen_tom, Aug 15 2019 Yes, but when people have made their minds (if any) up, it's wrong to confuse them with actual facts.-- 8th of 7, Aug 15 2019 // the population-to-death ratio remains easily with the Irish// Hmm. Well, to some extent I do indeed stand corrected. Although I'd point out that a lot of those statistics go back to the 1970s - outside my 40 year window. It's also worth mentioning that those figures are for the UK, and particularly for Ireland/Nornarn. Taken over the whole world, I don't think they'd show the same trend.
But you're right about things like mass shootings, especially in the US. I hadn't thought of them as terrorism, but of course they are - fair point. On the other hand, they're not often done in the name of any religion.
But then we come to the "lots of wars in muslim countries". I don't think you can claim that they're not related to islam, if you also want to consider Irish terrorism. In both cases, religion may be only an excuse or be one aspect of a more general division, but it's a factor.
So, on balance I still say that more modern terrorism is associated with islam than with any other religion.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 15 2019 Allah Oop!-- AusCan531, Aug 15 2019 I would guess that the DWP are the foremost terrorist organisation in the UK. Recent news article showed DWP giving the CAB and another organization 51 million quid, with the rider they would never criticise the DWP...-- not_morrison_rm, Aug 16 2019 I would guess that the DWP are the foremost terrorist organisation in the UK. Recent news article showed DWP giving the CAB and another organization 51 million quid, with the rider they would never criticise the DWP...-- not_morrison_rm, Aug 16 2019 Islam is a social/political force just like Capitalism/Communism, one of the world's most powerful global movements, has no special right to be respected and can be fairly judged by its own mandatory Quranic teachings and rules without having to go into terrorism, which was not mentioned, or Muslims as people, few of whom chose to be Muslim, who were not mentioned.
Islam dictates a long list of 'haram' activities, including diet and dress code, and in some interpretations forbidding the playing of musical instruments or depicting living things (Joyless).
Islam places men in charge women and strictly forbids Muslims from changing their religious beliefs or being homosexual, punishing accordingly (Repressive).
Muhammad was a warlord who bought and sold slaves, kept women as booty, assassinated and tortured critics, stole property and waged offensive battles. In Islam, Muhammad is the “ideal human being” who Muslims must strive to emulate. That he was just one of many of his time is useful to know when trying to square his lifestyle with modern values.
I have non-believing Muslims in my own family since Islam rules that a non- Muslim (man) cannot marry a Muslim (woman) and has to convert; Islam dictates who you are and are not allowed to fall in love with (see Repressive).-- TheBamforth, Aug 16 2019 //Muhammad was a warlord who bought and sold slaves, kept women as booty, assassinated and tortured critics, stole property and waged offensive battles.// Yes, but he had his bad side too.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 16 2019 I don't think it's important who did what over 800 years ago - I really don't. And of course we should be free to speak our minds and express our opinions as we see fit.
But it's getting to the point where a specific set of viewpoints is being used to radicalise the population - perhaps not with the intention to deliberately go out and cause harm - but certainly without any consideration as to any harm that might be caused.
If we agree that it's not right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre - how should we attune ourselves in response to the knowledge that members of the audience are twitchy to the point of panic? Whispering "fire" can cause the exact same effect if we're not careful - and if current events are anything to go by, there are a lot of twitchy people out there willing to interpret what many would innocently consider philosophical musings into a death- wish.
I'm not saying we shouldn't comment on the temperature in here, but if we feel it's important enough to mention, we ought to do so carefully and with enough responsibility to help try and settle the general mood.
175 people were killed in 16+ high-profile White Nationalist incidents in the last eight years - there have been many more less- lethal attacks linked to the same, often anti-Muslim rhetoric.
Who and how are these people being radicalised? And if, not long ago, we were ready to suggest that Muslims deal with the radicalisation problem apparently fermenting in their own communities, should we not take some steps to try and be a little more responsible in examining our own beliefs, if only to question from where they've come?
We can pontificate about how bad all the religions are in the world, how they're rooted in x, y or z. But what can we actually do with that information, other than use it to ferment prejudice?
What actual good does it do to reel out the usual heard-it-all- before stories, other than to perhaps, temporarily, make us feel a little better amongst our in-group - even if it limits and sets boundaries on what our in-group might look like?
Sure, speak freely, nobody is stopping you, but in the interest of simple kindness, we might try and be a little introspective once in a while. It's a pain in the ass, I know - but so is getting knifed through the window of a parked car in a Surrey Tescos for not being English enough (see link).-- zen_tom, Aug 16 2019 I always had doubts about Tesco.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 16 2019 You clearly put a lot of care into writing the above and I commend you for it.
The judgement call is exactly how able you feel people are to recognise nuance (such as the difference between philosophical musings and hatred, institutions and people), and how you balance positive effects (which are impossible to measure) with the risk of misinterpretation. Timing and context are everything. Once, Christians protested Jesus Christ Superstar and Life of Brian, now, all of us, Christians included, are richer for them (unless you really hate musicals). Humour and silliness is always the best tactic for change. I choose my words carefully.-- TheBamforth, Aug 16 2019 //You clearly put a lot of care into writing the above and I commend you for it. // I did, thanks.
So, you're saying the solution may come in the form of Halal Dolly? Maybe Allah Mia? Well, I can vote for that.
Which reminds me. If memory serves me right, John Cleese was attacked by Malcolm Muggeridge for Life of Brian. Salman Rushdie had a fatwa set by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. Only one of those warranted police protection.
Inexplicably, Andrew Lloyd Webber does not appear to have been threatened by anyone.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 16 2019 As John Cleese said: "four hundred years ago, we would have been burnt for this film. Now, I'm suggesting that we've made an advance."
Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. I'd suggest that a lot more recently they would have needed police protection. Progress occurred thanks to people gradually speaking up and daring to risk causing offence.-- TheBamforth, Aug 16 2019 I don’t think it’s about offence. Be as offensive as you want. The world is and should remain offensive and tough and rough and tumble. Nobody should be protected from being offended. But at the same time we shouldn’t normalise a narrative that increasingly makes people feel justified in harming others because they’re not white enough.Whether they’re Mexicans, Muslims or European migrants, the terrorist attacks on them by radicalised white snowflakes who have taken offence at something they heard that they didn’t like.-- zen_tom, Aug 17 2019 Damn. I hate it when someone posts a considered and rational argument.
There's no doubt that hostility against minorities is more prominent now than for some time, and that is of course to be abhorred. However, there is also some truth in saying that islam is more problematic than any other religion. As far as I can tell, there is no specifically jewish, christian or hindu movement which is as aggressive as the radical side of islam, on a global scale. It's not at all one sided, but islam seems to lead the field.
There's also the fact that, whilst the vast majority of muslims are peaceable and reasonable and easy-going, the strict interpretation of islam has some inherent issues that are incompatible with the broader understanding of human rights. One of those issues is that it's a non-voluntary religion: you're born muslim and, at least in theory and often in practice, you can't leave. Another issue is that predominantly muslim countries tend not to be secular, and the punishments/restrictions imposed by islam often have the force of law. I was shocked to find that, even in Malaysia (which I consider to be fairly developed and had expected to be secular), sharia law applies to muslims. This sort of thing is simply incompatible with the 21st century notions of equality, personal freedom and personal choice. More broadly (and without a huge depth of knowledge to back me up), it seems to me that islam today is largely where christianity (and maybe judaism - I don't know) were a few hundred years ago.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 17 2019 ^ Tells me, I just imagined a bouncy praise Allah wave of Muslim sujud rippling around the mosque like some wave table experiment. Everyone with youthful joy on their faces.
Religion was a there to help societies out when the heart was a bit stronger than the mind. We're still getting there, some hearts are stronger than others.-- wjt, Aug 17 2019 Hey, if we can have a helter-skelter in Norwich cathedral, who's to say we shouldn't have a bouncy castle in a mosque?
I'm just pointing out the problem with indulging in unhelpful stereotyping like the "joyless, repressive throwback.." line.
In case anyone else is enjoying my upbeat brand of light and breezy banter, I'm here all week and can be booked for weddings, bar mitzvahs and corporate events.-- zen_tom, Aug 17 2019 There is a problem with stereotyping. However, there is also a conflict coming sooner or later. Fundamentally, islam is set against the values that are on the rise globally - viz an increased demand for religious freedom, human rights and secularism. Either islam has to adapt, or the world has to, and I know where my money is.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 17 2019 ... but you can't tell us, because the tax authorities might read this.-- pertinax, Aug 18 2019 I see no difference between the ethos of Islam and that of Catholicism. Both are equally idiotic, oppressive, divisive, dangerous and the source of violence and misery.-- xenzag, Aug 18 2019 That's not completely unfair. On the other hand, my understanding is that you can decide to quit catholicism if you choose.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 18 2019 Maybe of Catholicism of a hundred or so years ago.-- RayfordSteele, Aug 19 2019 Oddly enough, of the three religions Christianity, Judaism and Islam, only one has a directive "be nice to the other religions". Which is it?
Not to mention Buddhism, which somewhere in sutras is a "whoever denigrates the Buddha spirit will have the head broken into seven pieces"...can't help thinking an even number of fractures is probably easier?-- not_morrison_rm, Aug 19 2019 The idea that there is a single, official "anything" is about as out of date now as it gets. Today there are nearly as many individual or group Christianities as there are "some kind of spiritual energy" new-age people. Yes, there's a Pope or two, and plenty of Archbishops, a plethora of Pastors, all of whom, if you got them into a room and asked them to Sinod the fuck out of what's what - would generate a gamut-load of sanctioned opinion.
Doubly so for Muslims, who, despite various localised Caliphs, Grand Imams, Muftis and Ayatollah's, who might well argue otherwise - Islam's central organisational tenets are widely to reject any imposition of any central worldly authority. So any Muslim is just as free as some of the more creatively fervent Baptists out in the States, to declare almost anything divine, and decry any other thing to hell and back.
Equally, those of a religious bent; Muslim, Christian, Jew or Zoroastrian, who find themselves ensconced in sensible, liberal and generously-minded, largely tolerant societies will undoubtedly see the divinity and godly wisdom in a more modern, live-and-let-live - dare-we-say it - civilised - type of attitude as has been, and continues to be proven to be, in the Darwinian soup of ideas, supreme over the last 200+ years.
Western Civilisation (despite its many flaws) is at its most powerful a force when it gets to flex its liberal values by demonstrating how existence can be quite lovely if we socialise ideals of tolerance, forbearance, fair play and kindness, and promote the goal of optimising the amount of freedom available to all.
Where this falls down is under constant lobbying pressure of more mean-minded, nationalistic world views where the accident of ones birth is promoted as being the primary source of worth in an individual. We largely put paid to this nonsense back in the 1940's but there's money in promoting it again, and it's up to all of us now to stand up for the right thing. Even if it means occasionally being annoying on a forum normally reserved for more grammar-focused pedantry.
So, to summarise:
i) there is no single monolithic "Islam" for us to call judgement upon ii) if there was, and even if there wasn't, regardless, the best thing we could do to bring it up to date, would be to liberal the fuck out of it, just like we successfully did with 2000 years of all kinds of Christianity and everything else (except pockets of the US, who might take a bit longer to catch up) iii) we can't achieve ii) so easily if we throw out the hard-won liberal values we all rely upon in our society and that make it so very delightful, despite the best efforts of others who are encouraging us to do so. iv) so why not be generous and kind to those of alternate faiths, safe in the knowledge that in doing so, we are cementing the civilised values of our shared Liberal Western Democracy in even the nastiest, furthest-flung corners of the globe - reducing the grip of cultists - of whatever stripe - over their captive flocks. It might take another 50 years, but we've been doing so well, it would be a shame to undo all the progress achieved so far. -- zen_tom, Aug 19 2019 //would be to liberal the fuck out of it// and how do we do that? Spreading Western ideas doesn't seem to be the whole answer - people are happy to adopt mobile phones and fast food yet still profess to despise the decadent, godless West.
I suspect your general philosophy is right, but it's not clear how you implement it.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 19 2019 We implement it by being good, decent people - who care about upholding a set of values we can all get around and agree on. And we should keep at it. It's a long-term strategy. For a while, with peak multi-nationalism, and a near-global acceptance of the rule of international law, we were almost getting there - not just culturally, but also in a tangible, organisational sense. The Financial Crisis was a massive setback to that, and now, there is somewhat of a retreat to a kind of isolationism that will undoubtedly see growth in the more opaque and unwelcome corners of the globe. The places where the most extreme and wicked incarnations of anti-human ideology keep their roots.
Collectively, we're the counter to those shadowy, isolate corners - we have the light, we just have to keep it shining.
It's about demonstrating a balanced, sustainable, healthy freedom - one in which everyone can feel confident and brave enough to place their faith in without being rejected. If a believer is welcomed and over time feels the genuine rush of freedom they never could have gotten at home - that's a powerful thing.
But it's not ever going to happen over night, and there's going to be horrible, terrible setbacks along the way.-- zen_tom, Aug 19 2019 // Collectively, we're the counter to those shadowy, isolate corners - we have the light, we just have to keep it shining. //
Mmmmmno. I don't think we are.
I refer you to a very important passage in H G Wells' "Open Conspiracy", from the beginning of the thirteenth chapter. I would draw your attention in particular to the last sentence. It's very important advice.
'WE have dealt in the preceding two chapters with great classes and assemblages of human beings as, in the mass, likely to be more or less antagonistic to the Open Conspiracy, and it has been difficult in those chapters to avoid the implication that "we," some sort of circle round the writer, were aloof from these obstructive and hostile multitudes, and ourselves entirely identified with the Open Conspiracy. But neither are these multitudes so definitely against, nor those who are with us so entirely for, the Open Conspiracy to establish a world community as the writer, in his desire for clearness and contrast and with an all too human disposition perhaps towards plain ego-centred combative issues, has been led to represent. There is no "we," and there can be no "we," in possession of the Open Conspiracy.'-- pertinax, Aug 20 2019 //of the three religions Christianity, Judaism and Islam, only one has a directive "be nice to the other religions". Which is it?//
I'm not sure which one you're thinking of but all three supply such a gesture, though they are vague, very hard to find and obviously all contradict themselves elsewhere multiple times:
Christianity: The parable of the good Samaritan - Luke 10:30–37
Islam: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. - 109:6
Judaism: For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God - Micah 4:3-5-- TheBamforth, Aug 20 2019 //This is why the Islamic faith is unreformable// You just never know what music the kids will get a hold of.-- wjt, Aug 24 2019 random, halfbakery